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Bob Jacobs's avatar

If you're going to collect your thoughts on dual-process politics into one place, then I’ll also leave the critiques I left on that video and post in one place. Though a lot of it is already touched on/incorporated, so I will use quotes from the article that touch on the critique before I present it. I will organize it into three main sections/critiques.

1) The Dual-Process Model Still Feels Too Simplistic

You write:

> Before proceeding, a quick disclaimer: while Dual Process Theory is highly influential, it’s not uncontested as a framework for psychological decision-making.

I'm happy you started thinking about critiques of dual-process theory but beyond the problem you linked, I have a some more problems with the theory.

The replication crisis hasn’t been kind to DP, and when you look at it closely, it breaks down in ways that aren’t trivial. Take driving or typing: these are clearly intentional actions, but they’re also not fully conscious. If System 1 is "unconscious and automatic" while System 2 is "conscious and deliberate", then where do these fit? If I’m driving somewhere familiar, I’m not consciously thinking about every turn, but I am intentionally driving to my destination. So is this System 1 or System 2? The distinction just doesn’t hold up well under scrutiny.

Then there’s the issue of unconscious influences on conscious thought. Let’s say I’m actively debating which brand of chocolate to buy, weighing my options logically. But in reality, I’ve already been nudged by past advertising, branding, and placement in the store. Is that System 1 or System 2? If we can’t even cleanly separate the two in simple decisions like this, applying it to political thinking feels even messier. There is a problem with nudged/directed *motivated* reasoning.

This is why I suggested before that it might make more sense to frame political thinking as a spectrum—on one end, people who spend a lot of time and resources analyzing policy; on the other end, people who don’t have that luxury. This framing keeps most of the ideas in your model intact while avoiding the pitfalls of an oversimplified duality.

2) A worry about a label for "System 2 thinker"

You write:

> In practice, most people don’t have the time, energy, or inclination to devote significant mental compute to politics.

I'm happy you incorporated that critique of mine into the post, but I do urge you to go further and examine the material conditions that lead some people to not do it. You touch on it, but, at the risk of sounding like a stereotypical socialist, think about the underlying material conditions and class conflict involved.

I worry that if we accept this dual-process framing uncritically, it might lead to the creation of a self-proclaimed ingroup of "System 2 thinkers": people who see themselves as more rational, more deserving of attention, or more politically sophisticated. The problem becomes pretty obvious when you map it onto the actual political/class/economic landscape.

For example: People love to mock mass movements like BLM for lacking well-formed policy proposals, and using slogans like ACAB instead, but step back for a second—why is that? If you live in an overpoliced neighborhood with lead pipes, food deserts, and constant exposure to environmental hazards, you’re not spending much time writing white papers on policy solutions. This is a class of people too busy trying to survive. Meanwhile, the class of people who do have time and resources to craft detailed policy proposals are, more often than not, the ones who are already doing fine under the status quo.

Political analysis costs time and nutrients. Analysis may be objective, but preferences are subjective. If the group that can write analysis prefers blue buildings while the group that can't prefers red buildings, a world that prioritizes the worldview of "system 2 thinkers" will be filled with blue buildings, even if it's mostly or wholly subjective.

If you have to work two jobs to get by, you’re simply not going to have the energy to sit down and write out a political plan to address your needs and preferences. But that doesn’t mean your grievances aren’t real, or that they don’t matter. The danger of an ingroup of "System 2 thinkers" is that it could just end up reinforcing existing inequalities — because the people who already have the time to think deeply about policy will naturally set the terms of the conversation, while those who don’t will be dismissed as reactionary or uninformed.

3) "Far" and "Extreme" are just code for "Threatening to status-quo"

You write:

"There’s also a danger of misinterpreting what this framework tells us. For example, we shouldn’t assume that radical ideas are wrong by default. Some System 2 superusers end up with radical conclusions (I might have some of my own)."

This is the weakest of my critiques, and may not even apply to this post (so skip this one if you're short on time).

I've touched on before, so I'm happy to see it included. Although our previous discussion on this was about the words "far" and "extreme". Maybe you meant "radical" as similar to "far" in that discussion? In any case the point I’ve brought up before (and I still think applies) is that words like "far" and "radical" and "extreme" aren’t used consistently. They’re not neutral descriptions of how different a belief is from the mainstream; they’re mostly just ways of saying "threatening to power structures."

I used the example of anarcho-primitivism. It’s obviously more "extreme" than, say, a standard environmentalist position, but nobody calls anarcho-primitivists "far-left extremists." Why? Because they’re a bunch of niche philosophers with no real power. They’re radical, but not a threat, so they don’t get branded as extremists. On the other hand, if you advocate for something like worker co-ops at scale, suddenly that’s "radical leftism"—even though it’s way less of a departure from the status quo than the anarcho-primitivists.

But again, this last one is more a word of caution for the language of future posts than a substantial critique.

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Nathan Ormond's avatar

I do like the article -- but here are some questions to eventually draw you to having the exact same (correct /s) views as myself:

1) What is a process?

2) What does it mean for a human to "process"? ("What are you a Mill? Are you grinding Wheat?" - B.F.Skinner)

3) What does it mean for the dual process theory to "approximate reality"? What does that claim actually mean

Then Extension/Joke Questions:

4) Why was the cognitive revolution a mistake?

5) How can behaviourism/operant conditioning explain mice navigating a certain way around a Maze... (lol: "it definitely can't, so now we need "cognitive processing" -- wait, wtf how does that help)

6) Why only two processes? Why not 3, 7, 21?

7) So is it better to live in a system 2 world where we have 7 hour streams on Joe Rogan about whether the Holocaust actually happened because is there really evidence for any of that stuff, or is it better to have the vast majority of people seeing incredibly concerning politics and saying "fuck you fascist" without the need for endless interminable discussion (against the backdrop of Oxford Oak and Hardback books)

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